Curse

FengShuiDove · Dec 14, 2008, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Alright, so after thinking about the content of this thread, I don't remember why I was curious about this, but the necessity of knowing still remains.

Oh yes, I remember now, and I'm too lazy to backspace. While doing a large number of HM missions, my gal and I used essentially 2x Sabway through the greater part of Elona and Cantha. It worked like a charm in most places except those that required niche builds in which case we adjusted, usually still using the Necros. I realize now that we wasted a spot on 2 copies of Life, which I'm sure in many cases our heroes dropped on top of each other, minimizing the effect. Most of this was before Xinrae's Weapon buff, but the question remains -- did our heroes waste their Elite skill casting on the same target?

Occasionally, while using a Vampiric weapon in PvE, I've noticed that I reach a certain point of health before getting healed by both healers. I know this because I see multiple numbers and am intelligent enough to differentiate /Rt heals and Monk heals reading numbers from skills or recognizing Divine Favor. So are our AI heroes wasting energy double-healing targets or are they intelligent enough to synergize without overhealing?

In the case of /Rt, this double healing from *spells* may be beneficial, since Necro Resto healers don't have strong spike heals and to recover full health (or at least to a safe level), two copies of any spell at the same time serve as a great spike. But considering Weapon Spells, it would be a waste to cancel WoR with another copy or with Xinrae's.

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tl;dr version: Are heroes/hench smart enough (or have some sort of personality) to prevent overhealing or double healing of the same target? Or are they wasting energy and skills canceling each other out or needlessly healing the same target?

Picuso · Dec 14, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

tl;dr version: Are heroes/hench smart enough (or have some sort of personality) to prevent overhealing or double healing of the same target? Or are they wasting energy and skills canceling each other out or needlessly healing the same target?

They are wasting energy. Whe I used Monk Heroes (both hybrid), it was fun to be healer by 2 WoHs >_<

MuC · Dec 14, 2008, 10:47 AM // 10:47

They are always wasting energy. Use N/Rt.

Super Igor · Dec 14, 2008, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Well, heroes are definetely better at healing that henchies. I was using heanchies as my only healers and always expirienced sharp lack of healing because they were constantly slaking with them.

My guys were at >50% hp after battle and those idiots didnt even move to heal them same goes when I help aggro under ps/soa yeah damage I taken was low but nobody really healed that either.

So, use healing heroes.

legacyofkain85 · Dec 14, 2008, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Well, heroes are definetely better at healing that henchies. I was using heanchies as my only healers and always expirienced sharp lack of healing because they were constantly slaking with them.

My guys were at >50% hp after battle and those idiots didnt even move to heal them same goes when I help aggro under ps/soa yeah damage I taken was low but nobody really healed that either.

So, use healing heroes.

maybe because they had no energy?id rather use my hero slots for dmg or support than monks,in eotn for example mhenlo and lina are quite good alone,take eve(blood ritual,or put it on a hero and don't take eve) along aswell and they can hold up your party quite well.

Super Igor · Dec 14, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by legacyofkain85

maybe because they had no energy?id rather use my hero slots for dmg or support than monks,in eotn for example mhenlo and lina are quite good alone,take eve(blood ritual,or put it on a hero and don't take eve) along aswell and they can hold up your party quite well.

No, it was like the start of the battle when I pulled. And after battle enough time has passed to recover some fair bit of energy so energy is not the cause.
No cant say that they hold the party well, their skill bars are terrible and ai is poor, I was running discordway heroes who had just support and prots and I went against HM charr mob in gwen (who now have biggest ammount of OP skills on their bars atm) and it has performed terribly. Mhenlo and that prot girl henchies were just standing there idk...running around, flag didnt help so I had to kite around way too much. When I took standard two n/rt and one n/mo discorders who didnt even had prot spirit I could just rush deep into the mob and it exploded, nothing died once. In case of heroes you can micro them to heal what you need healed, you cannot control henchies and have to watch them stand around when something is way under 50%.

I think you need to have a balance between heal and damage, when you die fast you cant kill fast either. In pve damage usually hits hard spreading all over your party, pre-prots are no longer as useful you need to recover lost hp as fast as u can and esplode the thing. I try to always have at least one hero who can heal and has party wide heal, makes it fail safe and I can take a stronger hench than wasting a party slot on blood one.

FengShuiDove · Dec 14, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuC

They are always wasting energy. Use N/Rt.

Kthx. Here's a tip: Read the OP next time.

I guess the question I'm asking is, would it be more efficient to run two entirely different builds so that I don't get the same skill at the same time. The waste would be most apparent on elite skills since my healers are either /Rt Restorers or WoH Monks... running two of either means that I'm potentially double casting/cancelling Xinrae's or WoR or I'm potentially using WoH on the same target at the same time (or at slightly different times, making one not meet the conditional).

Maybe I didn't present the question properly. My heroes never have energy issues or party support issues. This is a question of efficiency.

Super Igor · Dec 14, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Kthx. Here's a tip: Read the OP next time.

I guess the question I'm asking is, would it be more efficient to run two entirely different builds so that I don't get the same skill at the same time.

No, heals dont override eachover and large heals are usually good in pve prot or not, just make sure to have some party wide ones aswell.

As for weapon spells and enchantments I have never seen heroes cancel a wepon spell with another wepon spell or re-apply already active enchant.

upier · Dec 14, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

WoA got replaced by SW on my SS-spear-ritualist.
It might function differently on defensive spells though. Never paid attention.

Super Igor · Dec 14, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Spear ritualist??? upier you are mad, but meh, nothing that you run really works (maybe on nm, but every thing works there) so I dont really care.

FengShuiDove · Dec 14, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Alright. I believe my question is answered then, thank you for the replies. For general PvE then, would it be more fundamentally sound to run a WoH hybrid and a N/Rt Sab healer? Since that way against a spike both elites are used -- Xinrae's goes up as Prot and triggers on next hit while WoH *simultaneously* megaheals? We tend to run two MMs when appropriate, a Jagged and a Discord, I like two Cursers as well slightly modified. Then for healing bars:

N/Rt - 12 Resto 12 SR [Xinrae's Weapon][Mend Body and Soul][Soothing Memories][Spirit Light][Protective was Kaolai][Life][Signet of Lost Souls][Flesh of My Flesh]

Mo/E - 12 Heal 11 DF 6 Prot [Word of Healing][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Patient Spirit][Protective Spirit][Dwayna's Kiss][Dismiss Condition][Remove Hex][Resurrection Chant]

I like having two PwK in the party but the super life-saving heal from WoH has worked well also. Plus, the WoH build introduces minor hex removal and a dire heal through Dwayna's on hex stacking foes.

Anyway, there's my thoughts.

Pocketmancer · Dec 14, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Hope it's not too late for me to put in some input, but I run 2x Sabway when vanquishing, too.

Two Necro/Ritualists work, I'll say that, but I often find it to be inefficient when doing that for a few reasons. When running 1x Sabway team, it's not often that you'll find yourself climbing under 50% health too much. If you do, you're probably moving too fast through the map with Sabway. Therefore, any extra healing from the Ritualist's restoration line comes off as overhealing and tears down at the efficiency rate your team could otherwise be running.

Rather than running two Necro/Ritualists, I often run one Necro/Ritualist, one Necro/Monk. For what reason? The Necro/Monk functions as a stablizer with damage prevention. Since having two Necro/Ritualists would result in overhealing, it's better to underheal slightly (while keeping your party alive) and have another hero prevent damage.

I achieve this through the Necro/Monk. With the recent change in [[Life Sheath], that's became the elite of choice especially since it doubles as a condition remover. The Necro/Monk is generally set up to load protection spells onto your party. [[Protective Spirit], [[Aegis], [[Shield of Absorption], [[Reversal of Fortune] are also seen often on the Necro/Monk's bar. This often fixes the inefficiency problem of overhealing. If your party's red bars are full, protective spells are the way to go since it'll keep them as close to full as possible. This puts a bit more ease on your Necro/Ritualist healer, too, so your party doesn't plummet to hell and back when it decides to cast [[Life].

Super Igor · Dec 14, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Alright. I believe my question is answered then, thank you for the replies. For general PvE then, would it be more fundamentally sound to run a WoH hybrid and a N/Rt Sab healer? Since that way against a spike both elites are used -- Xinrae's goes up as Prot and triggers on next hit while WoH *simultaneously* megaheals? We tend to run two MMs when appropriate, a Jagged and a Discord, I like two Cursers as well slightly modified. Then for healing bars:

N/Rt - 12 Resto 12 SR [Xinrae's Weapon][Mend Body and Soul][Soothing Memories][Spirit Light][Protective was Kaolai][Life][Signet of Lost Souls][Flesh of My Flesh]

Mo/E - 12 Heal 11 DF 6 Prot [Word of Healing][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Patient Spirit][Protective Spirit][Dwayna's Kiss][Dismiss Condition][Remove Hex][Resurrection Chant]

I like having two PwK in the party but the super life-saving heal from WoH has worked well also. Plus, the WoH build introduces minor hex removal and a dire heal through Dwayna's on hex stacking foes.

Anyway, there's my thoughts.

I think you should run either one or another because as I said one full time healer hero is enough to make you party fail safe.

As for the bars I definetely wouldnt run protection spirit on your monk due to it getting spammed like phuck forcing it out of energy and having it for safer pulls isnt rally worth it. Kiss is not needed with woh bars because you have woh heal already which is generally enough to give huge megaheals and you have imbaspirit as much faster more relyable megaheal so kiss and ps cant be raplced with far more effective stuff lik soa which is great damge soaker and guardian or aegis which are amazingly good on hero ai and provde a lot of protection to your party.

As for your n/rt I wouldnt take soothing memories because when your hero drops its ashes it would continue to spoam SM which becomes total waste of energy being a sub-par resto heal heck you dont need extra energy management anyway. Replace it with wow because blocking generally wins pve and wow is great prot giving unstrippable block and health regen and no its not going to be overriden by XW.

The Meth · Dec 14, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Healing Henchies > Healing Heroes. Use heroes to kill things and for support skills. Wasting a precious hero slot on making them a full healer is dumb.

Daenara · Dec 14, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Healing Henchies > Healing Heroes. Use heroes to kill things and for support skills. Wasting a precious hero slot on making them a full healer is dumb.

... He said in the OP that he plays with his girlfriend in 6 hero teams.

Anyway, when I play with my husband (and we're running two healer heroes) we run a n/rt and hybrid monk. I would never bring prot spirit on the monk, they really can't use it effectively, and I agree with Aegis and SoA

This is something like I would use -[WoH][patient spirit][shield of absorption][dismiss condition][spotless mind][glyph of lesser energy][aegis][res of choice if you want one]
Also noticing with your skill points your DF is quite high, with prot low. I would probably split my attributes 12/9/9, as 9+minor run in prot is enough to get a 6 second SoA.

Well, out of all of that I would put most emphasis on Aegis. Aegis is pretty much king of PvE, so definitely try and include that on your bar.

Sorry for the ramble, hope it helps somewhat.

FengShuiDove · Dec 15, 2008, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Awesome, thanks for the responses folks =). Look forward to trying some of it out.

As for the 11 DF 6 Prot split, the intent was really just to give PS a decent duration with a cheap attribute split. And really, the only reason PS was on the bar was for, well, basically, HM Eles where I function as a "tank" of sorts -- frontliner being a better word I suppose. But recently she's been packing GDW on her bar, so between that and her Ranger interrupts it should be more than enough anti-cast, at least buying enough time to spike down a boss or kill a few and break aggro/move from AoE.

Thanks again all (even though I never really asked for advice, at least I'm better for the wear =P).